Illegal Immigration: There Is No Public Consensus On Reform
I continue to be amazed at the yawning gap between what Americans really think about illegal immigration and what the extremes - both liberal and conservative-- seem to think. What is even more amazing is that some conservatives (Laura Ingraham, Sean Hannity) continue to claim, loudly, that their voice is the one Congress and President Bush should listen to, and that they are the ones who really know what "The American People" think.Nonsense. Look at these polling data from the Pew Research Center. As the graph at left shows, Republicans of all stripes are divided -- even fractionalized-- on the issue. Remarkably, 42%, a plurality-- and almost a majority-- of Republicans think illegals should be given some kind of temporary status. Conservative Republicans are more in favor of temporary status, with 46% in that category-- more than any other subset of the party.
There is much to say about these numbers, but perhaps their most important message is that the immigration issue is politically complex and there is no clear consensus about the proper approach. Those conservatives who predict that if guest worker-type legislation is enacted, many conservatives will stay home on election day, should re-think their position. Do they really want to hand Congress over to to the Democrats because Congress did not cater to the views of 28% of Republicans on this issue?
Democracy is messy. Clear-cut black and white solutions, although often preferable, are rare. Sometimes creativity and compromise are necessary. These are uncomfortable truths.
I'm a Reagan Republican. I believe Reagan understood those truths, and that his life showed he accepted the principle of compromise when he did not have a majority behind him on a given issue. Those who consider Reagan their model in such matters should ask themselves honestly what he would do in these circumstances. Would not the man who spoke of the "city shining on the hill" also want to find a way to allow hard-working people who want to come to this country and are willing to earn their citizenship to do so? Would he not approve of a requirement that the illegal immigrants among those people admit their wrongdoing, pay a fine, pay back taxes, and go to the back of the line for citizenship?
I think he would. His was not an angry, strident voice, like those we are hearing on the radio now (and reading on the blogosphere) on this issue. Reagan had a sunny, optimistic voice. Let's listen to it now.
UPDATE: George F. Will wrote persuasively Thursday about this issue, from a conservative standpoint:
[C]onservatives should favor reducing illegality by putting illegal
immigrants on a path out of society's crevices and into citizenship by paying
fines and back taxes and learning English. Faux conservatives absurdly call this
price tag on legal status "amnesty." Actually, it would prevent the emergence of
a sullen, simmering subculture of the permanently marginalized, akin to the Arab
ghettos in France. The House-passed bill, making it a felony to be in the
country illegally, would make 11 million people permanently ineligible for legal
status. To what end?
Indeed. Read the whole thing. Also read Jack Kelly's piece today, which is right on the money.
UPDATE 2: Here's an interesting take on the rule of law and immigration.
posted by Lowell Brown at 1:44 PM
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25 Comments:
I am with Jason on this. We got here by choice, by not enforcing our laws on immigration. We can get out of this by choosing to begin doing so now.
Posted by Mark
"Overall, 53% say people who are in the U.S. illegally should be required to go home." The rest of the numbers the poll cites are dubious because there is no set definition of a "temporary worker program" and amnesty. Bush and others keep trying the same old bait and switch that Regean used to pass the last amnesty. That 28% you dismiss aren't buying it this time. The current Republicans in office have a long list of failures that just keeps growing. Eventually they will sit out an election.
George Will's arguments are laughable. You won't have a "sullen, simmering subculture of the permanently marginalized" if you ship most of them back. It may take a decade or more but it is possible.
Posted by nash
Who needs to govern by consensus? We need to govern by doing what it needed and what is the right thing to do. To assume the masses know that in view of today's astounding level of propaganda as news would be folly.
Lead -let the sheep follow - the other way around is disaster -pure democracy is for children to believe.
Close the borders is job one - after that we can debate and argue what to do with those lawbreakers and the fools that made the laws but refuse to enforce them . It doesn't work with kids and it won't work with illegals to ignore law. If following law is selective then what's to stop the rest of us from selecting which laws we'll follow?
Posted by DL
The caterwauling radical restrictionists who seem to dominate conservative blogging, and who seem to dominate most of the postings on sites like this, are indeed a slippery bunch! If they can cite a particular poll with results favoring massive roundups and deportations of illegals, then by god "the politicians better listen up!" On the other hand, show them a poll result that suggests that Americans don't view this issue to be that cut and dried, that maybe we Americans are not necessarily in favor of the mass roundup, and/or that a large plurality or majority of us concede that immigrant labor serves a key function in our complex economy, and that in addition to securing the border we really need to come up with a workable means of regulating guest workers - why, all of a sudden it's "damn the polls, damn the mindless sheep who respond to them, and everybody damn well better wake up and do what I say!"
Such absolutists are NOT going to get their way, no matter how loudly they shout ... regardless of their stupid threats to stay home on election day so that America elects a white-flag-waving, gay marriage loving Democratic Congress, or to let the Beverly Hillbillies (e.g., Hillary and Al) back in the White House to trash everything we stand for. Been there, done that in '92 and '96, thanks to the same crank mentality. Boy, wasn't that a joyful time for us conservatives.
What we are starting to hear now that the restrictionists finally recognize that they're not likely to see the mass roundups of their dreams, is the following fall-back logic:
"Well, we have to secure the border first, THEN we can think about dealing with those illegals already here."
It's sort of like the bad guy in the quintessential Hollywood version of the so-called "Mexican standoff": (how appropos) i.e., "First, you drop your gun, and then I won't shoot you!" Yeah, right! Clint Eastwood never fell for that one!
The only possible political leverage available to force a compromise, comprehensive approach to the illegal immigration problem, as our President says we must have, is to tie a legal guest worker program, and the potential for some of those workers to pay their dues and eventually earn citizenship, to solving the border security issue. All in the same law.
And, of course, vice versa ... the only way workable border security legistlation is going to become reality in America is to tie it to the guest worker program.
The guy who drops his gun first, dies. So get real, please.
As the Hedgehog says, and many other thoughtful fellow conservative leaders are now starting to say, the only way anything meaninghful will get done on immigration is to deal simultaneously with both sides of what is the same coin of illegal immigation. If one side of the debate gets its own way without any compromise, the other side will get zilch, and both sides (of course) know it, and logically both sides would rather settle for nobody getting anything (great ... we all get to die!)
So enough with the "deal with border security first, then maybe we'll address the other stuff some day" crapola and let's compromise NOW. It's either that, or we'll continue to do nothing on both counts, and where will that leave us? ... other than with a big border security problem in the middle of a terror war AND a big and growning social problem (i.e., a large, unassimilated, illegal community of people who have no personal stake in making our country a better place to live and raise our families).
Posted by Duane
It's ironic that you would cite Reagan and ask how he would handle this mess--he created a lot of it with the insane 1986 amnesty for illegals. I'm as big a fan and admirer of Reagan as there is anywhere, but when he was wrong, and he was very wrong on this one, I'm willing to say so. There are polls all over the place on this issue (most of which belong where Mark Twain placed statistics). Your animus toward Laura Ingraham is well documented, but I think you're allowing it to cloud your judgment. If the Senate version of immigration "reform" that the President supports passes, the Republicans may well lose control of Congress. That will not be the fault of those of us they have betrayed, it will be their fault for betraying us. If Republicans do not begin to control the border, first and foremost, they have no credibility as being serious about the War on Terror. This does not confer seriousness on the Democrats by default--but it does undercut the one issue that has moved many in the middle to vote Republican. Further, by shoving their middle finger in the faces of the base (AGAIN), President Bush and Congressional Republicans forfeit their right to our support.
Posted by Watchman
"Well, we have to secure the border first, THEN we can think about dealing with those illegals already here."
That's where I am. Congress (and the government in general) has shown itself to be capable of establishing new programs all over the place, but incapable of enforcing much of anything. If they start another new program, like guest worker or earned citizenship, you can count on it being deficient in enforcement. Unless and until the government can enforce what we already have on the books (like a border for starters), then they shouldn't be creating new programs that we won't be able to enforce down the road and that will only add to the problem of people ignoring the law.
Call me what you want, but I don't trust our government to do what it promises unless I see it for myself.
Posted by SkyePuppy
Watchman: I understand how you feel. But I have two questions. (1) What would you do about the problem? and (2) Are you saying that if Congress passes truly tough border enforcement, along with a tough-minded guest worker program, the Republicans deserve to lose control of Congress?
Posted by The Hedgehog
I am a conservative voter and I will stay home if the Republican party betrays me. This is my #1 issue. By ignoring the wishes of the MAJORITY of voters, the Republicans are painting the map blue.
George Will's position is pure spin. His statement, "path out of society's crevices and into citizenship by paying fines and back taxes and learning English" equals "Allowed to Stay". Only 32% of all voters prefer "Allowed to Stay". Only 22% of Republicans support "Allowed to Stay". The data you show on your very own page proves Will, and you, completely wrong.
Posted by DavidFnord
(7) Skye Puppy - Your mistrust of government competency to solve every problem is something most of us conservatives share to one degree or another ... but heck, if the government can't be trusted to get ANYTHING right, or even many of the most important things right, then the solution is anarchy, revolution, or moving to France or Zimbabwe or somewhere, right? I don't get the impression that that's what you want.
Mistrusting our government's competence to deal with guest workers, because it's, well, the government ... while at the same time trusting our government to completely fix border security with a big wall is also not logically consistent - it's all the same government, isn't it?
The fact is, our government gets a lot of things generally right, compared to the rest of the world's governments, particulary having to do with those matters that precisely belong to the government to solve (as opposed to those matters where government should mostly butt out, like managing medical care). We won a couple of World Wars, and the Cold War, didn't we, by using our government to manage those conflicts? Our government's free market policies have allowed the US economy to lead the world in growth and job creation and wealth creation for most of the last two and a half decades since Ronald Reagan entered the White House. We are the world's oldest and most successful democratic republic with guaranteed rights for all ... and our men and women in uniform seem to be doing a pretty good job right now of protecting us from the mad mullahs, wacked out Koreans, and such, at least for those of us sitting here on home soil the last four and a half years since 9/11.
So, can you admit that the government IS capable of doing some things right? Depending, of course, upon our political will to achieve whatever it is that we would hold our our government accountable to achieve. If we don't believe that - if we don't believe that we can trust the government to do a guest worker program right even if we put big-time pressure on our government to perform, then why bother with a border wall? Just another government boondoggle, right? Won't the illegals just avoid the 700-mile wall and come in by boat (like they already do here in my home state of Florida)? The fact is, we ought to be able to control our borders, and we also ought to be able to manage a decent guest worker program. Both are achievable, like walking and chewing gum at the same time.
Excessive pessimism about our ability to achieve our essential objectives as a nation is rather un-American, un-Reagan-like, and frankly, it isn't what got us to where we are today - the world's freest, most successful society. The radical restrictionists are essentially pessimists at heart. Pessimists rarely win elections in the US, they rarely make effective managers, and pessimists NEVER make good leaders. Sunny optimism by itself, however, isn't the entire solution - grim-faced determination and political will, American ingenuity, and a host of other national assets and tools are necessary too. Go back and listen to a Reagan speach or two, and then look at what he went about and accomplished as our leader. George W. Bush is following much the same model.
But on the other hand, if we're going to use pessimism as an excuse to walk away from our immigration problem - and by refusing to address the whole problem, and not just one part of it, we are indeed guilty of walking away from from the problem, and its solution - well, that's just not US, it's just not American.
That would be so ... so French!
Posted by Duane
Duane,
You mischaracterized my take on immigration. I am not looking for an excuse to walk away from it, and I am not refusing to address the whole problem. My concern is that, to date, our leaders have shown themselves to be unconcerned about stopping the flood of illegals across the border. The Democrats like the influx of potential "voters," and the Republicans like the influx of cheap labor for business. There's no incentive on either side to do anything effective about enforcement. That's where my mistrust lies. Show me the enforcement of what we already have (green cards, student visas, etc.), and then I'll trust them to enforce the new programs.
As for a wall, ask Israel if it helps. Will it solve the problem completely? No. Will it help a whole lot? Yes.
In my comment above, I was referring to a mistrust of immigration-related government programs (immigration is the topic of this post). I apologize for not having made that more clear. Of course I trust our military, because they've proven themselves since before the birth of our nation.
On a side note, I recommend you find another place besides Zimbabwe to use as your far-away country for people to move to (perhaps Botswana or Timbuktu?). I just posted this weekend on the conditions in Zimbabwe, and they're so horrible it's beyond belief. There's no humor left in Zimbabwe.
Anyway, I really am not a pessimist, unless I'm provoked, and the whole immigration question is a little too provocative to keep me in optimistic territory. But walk away? Jamais! That would be too...French.
Posted by SkyePuppy
SkyePuppy: Thanks for your thoughts. I am deeply saddened by the divisiveness of this issue. I wish someone had a workable solution. What really impresses (and depresses) me is the level of emotion on all sides of this discussion.
Posted by The Hedgehog
In answer to your first question, we need to do two things. First, we need to get serious about enforcing penalties on employers. If the laws on the books now were enforced and the job supply dried up, it would greatly cut the flow of illegals (not to mention encouraging those already here to go home). Second, we need to get serious about the border. I have a number of friends and clients who are Border Patrol agents. Without exception, they feel outmanned and underfunded. Many of them are spending thousands of dollars of their own money on equipment to do the job.
As to your second question, the term "tough-minded guest worker program" is an oxymoron. How can it possibly be tough to let people who have broken the law escape the consequences that breaking the law is supposed to entail. And as Thomas Sewell noted, a person who crashes down the door to your house is hardly a guest. Finally, given our lack of will to enforce existing law, how can we possibly have faith in a new law. "This time I really mean it" as every parent of a toddler knows, just doesn't cut it.
Posted by Watchman
If you don't think that immigration - illegal or other wise isn't a population & environmental issue affecting your grand kids and mine then watch this video which give the facts concerning this issue:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871651411393887069&q=illegal
+immigration&total=3409&start=0&num
=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
Thanks.
How can the United States help Malta on its illegal immigration when our country cannot even solve its illegal immigration problem?
"US offers Malta help on illegal immigration - PM
by di-ve news
MOSTA, Malta (di-ve news)--July 26, 2007 - 1630CEST--The US government has informed Malta of its intention to offer further assistance in addressing the problem of illegal immigration.
Prime Minister Lawrence Gonzi said that a total of 200 persons with a refugee status in Malta will be leaving for the US.
Addressing the media during a visit to Hetronic on the occasion of the 25th anniversary since the foundation of the company, the Prime Minister expressed his gratitude to American ambassador Molly Bordonaro for the offer to resettle a number of refugees from Malta in the US.
The Prime Minister also received a number of contributions from the employees of Hetronic to be given to the Refugees' Fund.
By Bart M cajas
Most of our government officials don't even know the difference between legal and illegal immigrants. Legal immigrants do not have any problems with the government. They came here by following the rules while illegal immigrants just crossed the border or made their temporary visas lapsed.
When illegal immigrants are deported, their childre, being also illegal should go with their parents. The 14th amendment on birthright is intended for the children of slaves and not intended for those who crossed the borders. Illegal immigrants do not give birth to US citizens, just like a mango tree does not bear an apple fruit. That is very simple analogy. Children of US consuls and ambassadors in other countries are not citizens of those countries. They are US citizens because their parents are US citizens.
When there is no work for these illegal immigrants, they will self-deport. Tigthening or enforcing our immigration laws at work places will eventually lead to no work for them. Social Cecurity, law enforcement agencies, ICE, FBI, CIA, federal, state and local government should have a common network to verify the validity of documents that are being presented for medical, school, work, driver's licenses, etc.
I do not know why politics come first before the people's wishes. While it is true that we are a nation of immigrants, most of the US citizens here were either native or legal immigrants.
We must end all immigration to the United State of America from non Western countires. If we do not do this then America will cease to exist in just a matter of decades. We are destroying the culture of America each new immigrant at a time.
This is not in reference (I don't think) to any previous commen here. I just need to vent...so here it goes.
Okay...I'm not sure what the rest of you think...and frankly, I don't care. I have to say, however, I am getting sick and tired of hearing about how some illegal alien.....THAT'S RIGHT!!! I SAID, "ILLEGAL ALIEN!!" (did I offend you?), filed a lawsuit stating that he/she was the subject of discrimination. Do not give me a load of B.S. about "oh my, they just want to do the jobs that americans won't do." I know plenty of good americans needing work, but are shoved off because certain people are working for pennies on the dollar and then collecting their welfare check on top of it. Sure, it's easy to say Americans won't wash dishes, or won't landscape lawns, or won't re-roof houses...IF YOU'RE PAYING $2 PER HOUR, OF COURSE A SMART AMERICAN WON'T TAKE THE JOB!!!!! Stop making excuses, start fixing the problem. The more we coddle this notion that every illegal alien should have unfettered access across our borders in order to enjoy our rights and freedoms no matter what, the further down the toilet this country is going to sink. And while we're on the subject, why is it that I will go to jail for committing a crime, but these CRIMINALS are set free because we might offend them and appear racially biased? HELL YEAH, THIS COUNTRY IS RACIALLY BIASED...in favor of the illegal aliens. Oh, one more thing that gets my blood boiling...IF YOU WANT TO LIVE HERE, LEARN THE FRIGGIN LANGUAGE. I mean, what does it say about our justice system when criminals are set free because some court couldn't get an interpreter for the scumbag illegal alien criminal? What I say is this...NO MORE ANCHOR BABIES!! NO MORE WELFARE!!! NO MORE FREE RIDES!! Take a stand and TAKE YOUR COUNTRY BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have a suggestion! After the border is secure, we need to send all the illegals back to where they came. If they have had children while here, those children must return with them. Once that child is 18 he or she can return to the US. But while the child is under 18 he is the responiably of the parent not the America citizens. I am so sick of going to the grocery store to buy food for my family of 6 with about $100 a week and see illegals in there buying hundreds of dollars worth of food using the food stamp card. And then loading up all that food that American citizens paid for into a $35,000 SUV. I drive a 2004 and purchase my family food, medical premiums, and bills. Send them packing, the parents and their kids. If not they will drain us dry and we will suffer because of them.
Its unfortunate that all the Illegals and all their misguided supporters don't understand is it's not just the jobs that they break into our county for. They come here take advantage of what we and our european mothers and fathers have built and developed over the last couple of hundred years.
We are the builders and the planners, we are a people that worked together and collaborated to construct a country that pales most other counties of the world. While their culture dappled with simple math, stone cuttings and astrology. We developed assemble line production and Aeronautic, Electric and Electronic science. advancement in medicine that has saved the third world from possible natural extinctions. Agriculture to feed the world, Chemicals and research that created new materials to house the worlds people, heck we even put a man on the, will you know.. The list of our accomplishment goes on and on. And these people think their just going to push us out of their way and take over and keep the wheel of civilization going.. What a joke !!
It's not in their cultural composition to do much more than what they have achieved in thousands of years. They don't have the sophistication or the abstract ability to bring innovation to any kind of fruition. Their presents here only diminishes our progress and dilutes our development by draining our resources,
defusing our ability to coalesce. To the point where we aren't communicating with each other as we once did, due to the cultural threats that they have imposed
upon on us by there demands and self appointed entitlements. We no longer trust one another and live in doubt of our neighbors.
Remember, 90% of the Mexican Illegals are the small indigenous mestizos and mayan indian people, not the white ruling class of mexico. The mexican elite have conveniently pawned off there uneducated and poor underclass unto the the people of the United States. The Illegals know exactly what they represent and the elite mexicans are glad to get rid of them. That's just one of the reasons they fight to keep the borders open from there side! Look, there's only one thing the Illegals understand and it's always been apart of life in mexico ( Yes, I've lived there) and that's criminal authority and lawlessness. And if all we do is stand on the border and watch them walk by us with no resistance they will keep coming by the millions and having millions of babies by the millions and colonize our land and elect foreign national politicians to represent them till we no longer have a country. America we will have to really start to fight back soon or we will certainly perish.
Please read "A WARNING TO AMERICA FROM SOUTH AFRICA" http://beyondbabylon.blogspot.com/2007/03/warning-for-america-from-south-africa.html
TO SEE WHERE WE MIGHT BE HEADING IF WE DON'T WAKE UP!..AND FIGHT BACK..
Ok, I know i am probably not as educated as the rest of you, but it does not take a rocket scientist to know that when you come here you are suppose to come leagally and assimilate to America instead of try and take it over. Anybody who is flying a Mexican flag and demanding that Americans speak Spanish does not have any loyalty to America, they are simply trying to take this country over, period, end of story.
At the present time we are in Iraq, we were told we could not fly an American flag there, becaus we were not in our own country, but everyday I see Mexican flags flying everywhere here in Texas. I am totally offended by this. I am tired of the excuse that this use to be Mexico and it was stolen by Americans. Get this through your head Mexican people, we bought your land from you. We did not steal it. And if you want it back you need to buy it back from us, you cannot have it for free. LOL
If illegal immigrants are allowed to stay, they must integrate into our systems. We already have segregated communities which tend to have racial diversion and high crime. Take the "Little China's" around our country as an example. Given the opportunity to stay or become citizens through an amnesty program should still require similar requirements to those in place for one becoming a citizen. Specifically a knowledge of our country, its history and American English as a national language.
if there is no clear solution on how to rid our country of so many illegal immigrants, then why spend millions of dollars on border control if its not really doing anything. we should be spending that money on the national debt that america owes and on more affordable health insurance. not saying that we shouldn't forget about this issue, but focus on a concern that needs much more attention.
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